{"id":184736,"date":"1947-07-15T00:00:00","date_gmt":"2019-03-11T21:46:27","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.un.org\/unispal\/?p=184736"},"modified":"2019-03-11T21:46:27","modified_gmt":"2019-03-11T21:46:27","slug":"auto-insert-184736","status":"publish","type":"document","link":"https:\/\/www.un.org\/unispal\/document\/auto-insert-184736\/","title":{"rendered":"Palestine question – UNSCOP hearings – Verbatim record (Brother Bonaventure)"},"content":{"rendered":"
\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>\n
\n\t\t\t\tOFFICIAL RECORDS OF THE SECOND SESSION OF<\/strong>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tTHE GENERAL ASSEMBLY<\/strong>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n

<\/p>\n

\n\t\t\t\tSUPPLEMENT NO. 11<\/strong>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\t——-<\/strong>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n

<\/p>\n

\n\t\t\t\tUNITED NATIONS SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON PALESTINE<\/strong>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\t——<\/strong>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n

<\/p>\n

\n\t\t\t\tREPORT OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY<\/strong>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tVOLUME IV<\/strong>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tANNEX B:<\/strong>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tORAL EVIDENCE PRESENTED AT PRIVATE MEETINGS<\/strong>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n

<\/p>\n

\n\t\t\t\tLake Success, New York<\/strong>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n

<\/p>\n

\n

VERBATIM RECORD OF THE THIRTY-FIRST MEETING (PRIVATE)<\/strong><\/p><\/div>\n

\n\t\t\t\tHeld at the Y.M.C.A. Building, Jerusalem, Palestine, Tuesday, 15 July 1947, at 9 a.m.<\/i>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tPresent:<\/i>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMR. SANDSTROM Sweden, CHAIRMAN\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMR. HOOD, Australia\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMR. RAND, Canada\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMR. LISICKY, Czechoslovakia\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMR. GARCIA GRANADOS, Guatemala\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tSIR ABDUR RAHMAN, India\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMR. ENTEZAM, Iran\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMR. BLOM, Netherlands\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMR. GARCIA SALAZAR, Peru\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMR. FABREGAT, Uruguay\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMR. BRILEJ, Yugoslavia\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n

<\/p>\n

\n\t\t\t\tSecretariat:\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n

<\/p>\n

\n\t\t\t\tMr. Hoo, Assistant Secretary-General\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMR. GARCIA ROBLES, Secretary\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n

<\/p>\n

\n\t\t\t\tThe CHAIRMAN : <\/strong>I call the thirty-first meeting to order.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n

<\/p>\n

\n\t\t\t\tThe agenda for this private meeting contains two items—the hearing of the Right Reverend Father Gustos of the Holy Land and the hearing of representatives of the Sephardi Community Shall we adopt this agenda?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n

<\/p>\n

\n\t\t\t\tNo objection raised.<\/i>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n

<\/p>\n

\n\t\t\t\tAdopted.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n

<\/p>\n

\n\t\t\t\tSir Abdur RAHMAN  <\/strong>(India): May I know whether anything has been decided about going to Beirut or anywhere else? We see all kinds of things in the papers but we know nothing officially.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n

<\/p>\n

\n\t\t\t\tThe CHAIRMAN : <\/strong>I can tell you just as much as you have seen in the papers. Answers have been received from three of the States—Egypt, the Lebanon and Iraq.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n

<\/p>\n

\n\t\t\t\tI shall now ask His Paternity, Father Gustos, to come to the table.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n

<\/p>\n

\n\t\t\t\tReverend Brother Simon Bonaventure, representing Father Gustos, took a seat at the table. <\/i>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>I have a letter from His Paternity addressed to the Committee. With your permission I will read it:\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\t"15 July 1947 "\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMr. Justice Sandstrom, Chairman,  United Nations Special Committee on Palestine, Jerusalem, Palestine "Mr. Chairman,\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\t"We take this opportunity to thank you and all the associated delegates of the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine in favouring us with this present occasion to present to the Committee our memorandum bearing on the Christian Holy Places in Palestine. For the pre­sentation of our memorandum we have delegated as our representative the Reverend Simon Bonaventure, our confrere, whom, we trust, will be acceptable to your honourable Committee.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\t"With due thanks for your kind consideration, I have the honour to be, sir,\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\t"Your obedient servant,\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\t"Fr. Alberto Gori, "Gustos of the Holy Land"<\/i>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tThe CHAIRMAN : <\/strong>Are you prepared to expose to us what His Paternity has to say?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tThe CHAIRMAN : <\/strong>Will you please begin?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>Mr. Chairman, Members of the Special Committee:\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMindful of the terms of reference conveyed by the General Assembly of the United Nations authorizing its Special Committee on Palestine to ascertain, if possible, additional information  of facts for the peaceful solution of turbulent Palestine, and instructing this same Special Committee to give "most careful consideration to the religious interests in Palestine of Islam, Judaism and Christianity", we feel not only privileged but more so conscience-bound to aid your Special Committee to give that careful consideration of the religious interest of Christianity here ** in this sacred land of Palestine. Our position as Gustos of the Holy Land, emanating directly by appointment from the Holy See, confers a heavy responsibility,  a duty that obliges  us  to safe-guard rights and practices held throughout the course of centuries, as well as the decorous maintenance of the Christian Holy Places entrusted to our care on behalf of the Roman Catholic Church. The Custody of the Holy Land-an international body of religious men forming pan of the world-wide Franciscan Order—is composed of twenty-five different nationalities with a local membership of over four hundred priests and brothers. Excluding a few sanctuaries held in joint proprietorship with other religious com­munities, we hold immediate and exclusive jurisdiction over more than forty-five Holy Places scattered throughout Palestine—protecting and preserving  these monuments of Christian heritage in full accordance with their religious dignity. We therefore appear on behalf of more than 300,000,000 of our Catholic brethren throughout the world who have deep religious regard and keen sensibilities for these Holy Places.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tRightly so is Palestine called the Holy Land, made holy by the physical presence of the Divine Master, and entrusted with the memorable and sanctified sites of His birth, life and death. And because this land of Palestine is holy to almost 600,000,000 Christians throughout the length and breadth of all  continents,  watchful  eyes and throbbing hearts follow with greatest concern the impending destiny of their sacrosanct shrines. The question of the Christian Holy Places can­not and must not be fogged by the rivalry of clashing  political  ambitions.   The  question  is neither one of power, aggrandizement nor material gain these Holy Places cast their lustre from   the  presence  and  divine  power  of  the Omnipotent. The question of the Holy Places is not a national problem as to whether political expediency counsels  partition,  sovereign  independence or a bi-national State. The question is independent of whatever political decision may be deemed conducive to the peace of Palestine. And yet it is bound up most intimately with whatever solution may be imposed. The shrines of Christian heritage dot the land from north to south, be it on the shores of the Lake of Tiberias or in the hamlet of Cana, be it at Nazareth made memorable by the Annunciation and  boyhood days of Jesus Christ or on  the secluded summit of Mount Tabor in testimony of   the   Transfiguration; likewise   Jerusalem, Bethlehem, the Jordan River with its traditional site of the Baptism of the Saviour . . . these and many more of varied importance garland Palestine as the Holy Land of universal recognition, reverence and respect.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tWe are indifferent to the political tug-of-war that is now raging in Palestine and which has riveted world-wide attention. However, in view of the insistent demand for political autonomy-be it partition or independent sovereignty, should such an eventuality ever be realised—it is of paramount importance that solid international guarantees embodying effective protective measures for the safeguarding and preservation of these Christian shrines be assumed. It would be somewhat far-fetched to expect a non-Christian Government to exercise an active and sympathetic regard for Christian Shrines of which they, would have little or no understanding or evaluation. Should history repeat itself with regard to Christian shrines within the domain of a non-Christian Government, unfettered in moments of decision regarding the possible difficulties that might ensue, there is a very probable likelihood that universal Christian reaction might result in serious consequences. Free access to all sanctuaries at all times and the unhampered conducting of religious services must necessarily constitute prerequisites in whatever modus vivendi  <\/i>established. The oft-repeated "enclave" for the Holy Places in Jerusalem and Bethlehem may well ensure these shrines, but what about the isolated ones as mentioned above? For all practical purposes a Commission specially deputised,  and to whom juridical recourse could be had in  case of need might serve the required purpose of avoiding any  friction,   danger  or, if  we  may say so, even desecration.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tWe express our firm hope that as this Special Committee on Palestine is instructed to give its careful consideration to the religious interests  of Christianity in Palestine, this very definite and  all-important problem of safeguarding and preserving these Holy Places, so dearly venerated by Christendom, be given weighty consideration in its recommendations to the General Assembly, irrespective of whatever new political solution-provisional or permanent—may be established.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tThe CHAIRMAN : <\/strong>I thank you, Brother Bonaventure. Will you answer the questions that we will put to you?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>To the best of my ability.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tThe CHAIRMAN : <\/strong>The memorandum speaks about certain guarantees which would embody effective protective measures for the safeguarding and preservation of the Christian shrines, and in perhaps guarded terms, you have suggested first of all, free access to all Sanctuaries at all times and the unhampered conducting of re­ligious services; further, an "enclave" for the Holy Places in Jerusalem and Bethlehem; and thirdly, the constitution of a commission specially deputised, to whom juridical recourse could be had in case of need. Do you recommend these measures?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>Should there be a non-Christian  State,  certainly we recommend  that measures—international guarantees—be embodied in any arrangement with the new State that may possibly be set up.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tThe CHAIRMAN : <\/strong>Do you consider these meas­ures which are suggested in this memorandum as sufficient, or do you suggest any other measures?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>Of course we suggest -effective protective measures. The minutiae <\/i>of working out these details would go to a working committee   in   conjunction   with   the   religious heads of the Christian communities in Palestine,  and, I would also add, in conjunction with the individuals who would compose that commission. It might be suggested that this commission would be composed of Western countries,  and there would have to be a consensus of opinion between the member States, you might say, on the commission and the Government here in Palestine. I dare say it would be workable, but coming down to the minutiae <\/i>that would be up to the commission to work out.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tThe CHAIRMAN : <\/strong>When you speak of an "enclave" for Jerusalem, do you refer to any special plan, or what do you mean by. this "enclave"?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>This "enclave" has been mentioned frequently in the press as serving the purpose of the shrines in Bethlehem and Jerusalem—either a part of the country having extra-territorial rights, or you might also have it as being embodied in this commission. When we come to the final analysis of these arrangements, it would have to depend on what State is constituted and what best arrangements could be effective. But this off-repeated, much publicised "enclave" of Jerusalem and Bethlehem is not in accordance with the Holy Places as such. The Holy Places are not merely in Jerusalem and Bethlehem; they are scattered throughout Palestine, and even though at the present time Jerusalem and Bethlehem are considered the all-important sanctuaries, that does not mean that we are to permit these other sanctuaries of Christianity to be rubbed out in the course of time by not attending to their safeguarding and protection.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tThe CHAIRMAN : <\/strong>But because of the special importance of the Shrines in Jerusalem and Bethlehem, you propose this special measure of an "enclave"?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE: <\/strong>I would not necessarily say they are of special importance, because while we have the Nativity at Bethlehem and the Death of our Divine Master here in Jerusalem, we also have the Annunciation, which is a very important shrine. So these are not the only important shrines; there are others outside of this section of the country—that is, Jerusalem and Bethlehem.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tThe CHAIRMAN : <\/strong>I mention the special importance of these shrines and perhaps also that there are so many shrines concentrated in this area; do you therefore propose a special measure of an "enclave"?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>That would be helpful, since there are a large number of shrines in Bethlehem and Jerusalem. And that would be helpful as regards the shrines. As regards the political element I do not wish to enter into that part.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tThe CHAIRMAN : <\/strong>You mean that "enclave" to be placed under special administration?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE  <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tThe CHAIRMAN : <\/strong>Would in your opinion a restricted area—let us say to the Old City—be Sufficient?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>By no means, because right outside the Old City we have shrines. There is the Garden of Gethsemane and there is the Tomb of the Blessed Virgin. There is the Mount of Olives, the site of the Ascension, outside of the Old City; we have the site of the Cenacle. The wall would not be a means of circumscribing all the shrines of Jerusalem.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tSir Abdur RAHMAN  <\/strong>(India): Might we have a list of the important shrines and sanctuaries which, according to the Brother, are important and should be safeguarded. If we get a list it will be helpful to us.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tThe CHAIRMAN : <\/strong>Have you got a list of all these shrines?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother  BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>Is that only for Jerusalem, or for all Palestine?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tSir Abdur RAHMAN  <\/strong>(India): For all of Palestine, and for Jerusalem particularly. I am asking you to give it later, not now.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>You can have it tomorrow. In fact I have it here, but it is in a different language, and I would much prefer not to pre­sent that.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tSir Abdur RAHMAN  <\/strong>(India): If you would kindly let us have a list of the important shrines and sanctuaries scattered throughout Palestine, and in Jerusalem, both inside and outside the city.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>I would like to draw a distinction there. We do not wish to suggest only the important places. There are places of varied importance. There are some shrines you might call first-class, and others of lesser importance. We consider these shrines of lesser importance, not of equal value, but of equal esteem. Therefore I would prefer the list to contain all the shrines.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tSir Abdur RAHMAN  <\/strong>(India): You might give a list of all the shrines and point out which, according to you, are very important and which are important.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>That we cannot do because we consider them all important.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tThe CHAIRMAN : <\/strong>May I consider that it is against your feelings to classify them?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>No, it is not against my feelings—by no means. But once it is declared that this is important and that is not important, should it ever come to pass that a new State be born in Palestine there might perhaps be a distinction made as to those which would be entitled to protection, and the others not considered very important.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tThe CHAIRMAN : <\/strong>My conclusion is that we would be content with a list of the shrines without any classification.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tSir Abdur RAHMAN  <\/strong>(India): That is quite enough.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMr. RAND  <\/strong>(Canada): I should to know something of the nature of the proprietorship and the legal position of your administration. For instance, prior to 1917, what sort of title—I am using terms in law with which I am familiar— what was the nature of the title in any of these important shrines in this city? The Chairman spoke of a deed. Do you have actual title in any body of men, or in a man, to that particular site?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>May I ask you a ques­tion first to correct any misunderstanding that I may have? Does the gentleman wish to question me as to whether we have a right to these shrines?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMr. RAND  <\/strong>(Canada): I am just trying to find out the nature of the ownership.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>First of all, I might say this. The ownership of these shrines is recognized by the Government of Palestine as belonging. to the Community. Thus exclusive jurisdiction! in any shrines are not in question.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMr. RAND  <\/strong>(Canada): I am not questioning anything of that sort of all. Could you five me the nature of the title which is conceived to reside in such a place? For instance, in the country where I come from if you build a church the land of that church has to be owned by some individual or some corporation—some recognised body. Now, is that the nature of your ownership here?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>Well, the ownership of our shrines is centered in the custody of the Holy Land.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMr. RAND  <\/strong>(Canada): Is it vested in the trustees?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>In the person of the Gustos of the Holy Land who is the official representative of the Holy See here in Palestine for the Holy Places.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMr. RAND (Canada) Now  where does the Holy See get its legal basis for jurisdiction here, both as to ownership of the shrine and as to administrative powers? Under the Turkish rule who was the custodian?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>The Gustos of the Holy Land, for the past six hundred years.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMr. RAND  <\/strong>(Canada): And then it was given by the  sovereign  power  having jurisdiction  over Palestine at that time?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMr. RAND  <\/strong>(Canada): Well, then, that is really the basis of your legal jurisdiction.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>The basis of our legal jurisdiction goes back farther than that, I dare say. If we are going to find the basis for any legality as to these places, we cannot begin only six hundred years ago; we must begin at the very beginning of these Christian places. At that time there must have been a legal basis.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMr. RAND  <\/strong>(Canada): I do not care how far back you go if you tell me exactly the legal sources.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>We have permanence of jurisdiction from the time of the Turkish regime.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMr. RANK  <\/strong>(Canada): And that has been recognized throughout the intervening time?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMr. RAND   <\/strong>(Canada): And what is the scope and extent of the jurisdiction which you actual­ly exercise? What does it consist of?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>That jurisdiction extends to the right of proprietorship at the shrine, the conducting of religious services, the arrangement of the personnel stationed there, and what­ever repairs are necessary.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMr. RAND (Canada): <\/strong>I suppose there is a divi­sion of interest among the various denomina­tional groups?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>Well, each denomina­tion takes care of its own shrines.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMr. RAND  <\/strong>(Canada): How does it get its own shrines?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>As I said—by the Turkish – regime\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMr. RAND  <\/strong>(Canada): The division was made by the Turks?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMr. RAND   <\/strong>(Canada): And the same division  has<\/i>continued ever since?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>More or less.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMr. RAND  <\/strong>(Canada):  How was it changed? You said "more or less"; if it is not exactly the same  <\/i>as the governing power changed it, or has the Custodian changed it?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother Bonaventure : <\/strong>No, the Custodian does not change it, by no means. Whatever is within his jurisdiction he is free to change. But where there is a question of proprietorship of other shrines with other communities, there, of course, <\/i>we have the Government as more or less of a supervisor.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMr. RAND   <\/strong>(Canada): That is the civil Government?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>Yes, naturally.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMr. RAND  <\/strong>(Canada): And have changes been  modifications made by the civil Government?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>Well, that Mr. Delegate, is on the question of the status quo, <\/i>and that really does not come within.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMr. RAND  <\/strong>(Canada): Pardon me for interrupting, but I am just trying to find out the jurisdiction. I would like to know the legal setting of this thing. If you do not care to give it, it is all right; I can get it somewhere else.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE :  <\/strong>No, it is all right. I  will give it to the best of my ability. Throughout six hundreds years it has been legally recognised, since we are here.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMr. RAND  <\/strong>(Canada): I have no doubt about that, but  I want  to know the nature of  the I underlying legal claim.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>Well, during the Turkish regime the Government stated that this community should have this shrine and that community should have that shrine. That was the basis for the present status quo.<\/i>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMr.<\/i>RAND <\/i> <\/strong>(Canada): And any modification of that would come from the existing Government?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>Certainly.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tSir Abdur RAHMAN  <\/strong>(India): Mr. Chairman, just one more question. Why has not the Holy Sepulchre been properly repaired? It is in a bad state. Why can it not be repaired by all the Christian communities?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tThe CHAIRMAN : <\/strong>Are we concerned with that?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tSir Abdur RAHMAN  <\/strong>(India): When I saw it I was struck by it, and did not like the Holy Sepulchre being in that state. Therefore I wanted to know the reason why it was not properly repaired. Is there any dissension among the various communities, or are there other reasons? I just want to know that.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>I feel in perfect accord with the delegate's question. Why can it not be rebuilt, I should say, not repaired—rebuilt to give honour and glory to the sanctity of the shrine? I agree with you, sir, to the full  extent.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tThe CHAIRMAN : <\/strong>Sir Abdur Rahman, we have a report on the repair. We will hand it over to you.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tSir Abdur RAHMAN  <\/strong>(India): That is all right. I did not know it.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMr. RAND  <\/strong>(Canada): May I ask you one more question? Does what you said about proprietorship and legal administrative power apply to all of the shrines which you will enumerate?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>Yes, yes.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tThe CHAIRMAN : <\/strong>I suppose that in all cases the rights conceded by the Turkish Government are not uncontested, that there are disputes in certain cases? Among other things, I should like to ask you if the French Government does not claim, what shall I call it, trusteeship for certain holy places?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>Well, there are several questions here, Mr. Chairman.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tThe CHAIRMAN : <\/strong>And all come back to this question of status quo?<\/i>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>Yes, status quo. <\/i>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tThe CHAIRMAN : <\/strong>I don't think we have to go into that question.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>No, that is not within the scope of the Investigating Committee.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tThe CHAIRMAN : <\/strong>It is enough here to state that there are certain disputes going on.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>For that you might have to stay four or five years in Palestine.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tThe CHAIRMAN : <\/strong>Fortunately, we do not have to solve all the contested questions in this country.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMr. ENTEZAM  <\/strong>(Iran) (Interpretation from French): Mr. Chairman, I just want to know if, in the opinion of the Brother, Nazareth also should be considered as a special Holy Place in the same way as the Holy Places of Jerusalem or Bethlehem, or whether Nazareth could be counted as a Holy Place respected, of course, with a little less status quo <\/i>than Jerusalem and Bethlehem.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>In other words, a second "enclave"?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMr. ENTEZAM  <\/strong>(Iran): Yes.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>When we begin to increase "enclaves" we are getting into more difficulty, I should imagine.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMr. HOOD  <\/strong>(Australia': Would the Brother explain why, if there is clear recognition of the existing titles by any new administration here of a future government, there should at the same time be any necessity for a special commission of the nature which you proposed in the paper here?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>Oh, this Commission proposed here would not go into the actual legality of the places. This Commission would in a sense, ensure free access and unhampered conducting of religious services after the State is established because, if, as it says here, a non-Christian Government would be established, it is rather far-fetched to expect a non-Christian Government to give sympathetic aid, consideration, or evaluation of these Holy Places. Therefore, to ensure the free access, and that unham­pered religious services may be conducted, this commission should be established. It is not intended that this commission should go into the past history or legality of these places, but to see that the religious conducting of the services is continued smoothly and to avoid any friction that might possibly result.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMr. HOOD  <\/strong>(Australia): Is there any special significance in the use of the word "juridical"?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>Well, juridical is un­derstood in this sense—that we can have recourse to this commission, and that the commission can do something about it. Otherwise, the body would not be effective.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tThe CHAIRMAN : <\/strong>Would it have the character of an arbitration court?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>I should imagine that in drawing up this commission there should be some arrangement made between the commission and the existing government that in the eventu­ality of any serious difficulty some court be established. There are many shrines involved, and that would be most helpful.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tSir Abdur RAHMAN  <\/strong>(India): I might inform you, Mr. Chairman, that in India, in Madras and in the Punjab there are tribunals to protect the rights of the Sikhs in the Punjab and of the Temple of Madras. I am listing them for you, and that legislation, if it is known, may be of some use to you when we are deliberating on that question.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tThe CHAIRMAN : <\/strong>Yes, if need be we shall address ourselves to you then.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMr. FABREGAT  <\/strong>(Uruguay) (Interpretation from Spanish): Do you consider it to be in the interest of Christianity that all the Holy Places and Sanctuaries should be maintained under a special jurisdiction?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>In a non-Christian government I would say offhand, yes.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMr. FABREGAT  <\/strong>(Uruguay): Would this special jurisdiction also enter the civil jurisdiction or would it be only religious?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>Well, that is beyond the competence of my authority to speak on that because we are entering into the rights of the Christian minorities, and I am not qualified to give any answer to that.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tThe CHAIRMAN : <\/strong>Another question. Would this commission have jurisdiction in the status quo <\/i>question?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>I should imagine so, yes.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tThe CHAIRMAN : <\/strong>To maintain the status quo?<\/i>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>Not to make changes, but possibly to look into the original claims. That could be done in due time, considerately, and it might be most helpful.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMr. GARCIA SALAZAR  <\/strong>(Peru): I understand that the Holy Places were in former times under the protection of some Christian country, France or Spain. Is it your idea to replace that protection by a commission.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>That is practically the idea.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMr. GARCIA SALAZAR  <\/strong>(Peru): Where those Western countries would be represented?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>Except that in the case of the Catholic country—which was the protecting power you referred to—the argument was solely in the Catholic interests. Whereas, this Commission would be for all the shrines, whether held by Catholics or non-Catholics.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMr. GARCIA SALAZAR  <\/strong>(Peru): And that commission would not, of course, be entitled to any civil jurisdiction, as those powers were not entitled to it?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>No.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMr. GARCIA SALAZAR  <\/strong>(Peru): But it is only to replace one authority with another,, is that true?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>To a certain extent, yes.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMr. BLOM  <\/strong>(Netherlands): Is this memorandum we read that the Roman Catholic Church has exclusive jurisdiction over more than forty-five Holy Places, joint proprietorship with other religious communities, and some other cases. Are there many more Christian Holy Places entirely outside your jurisdiction?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>Yes, yes, there are places that do not come within our jurisdiction. First I speak of the exclusive jurisdiction which we have, and then of the partial jurisdiction. Where we have no jurisdiction, we cannot talk about that.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMr. BLOM  <\/strong>(Netherlands): Are there many Christian Holy Places where you have no jurisdiction?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>Yes, yes, but they are very few.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMr. BLOM  <\/strong>(Netherlands): Could we in one way or another obtain a list of those Holy Places from you, also?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>Certainly. I have al­ready promised the Committee to send in a copy of the Holy Places that we have under our exclusive jurisdiction and of those under partial jurisdiction.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMr. BLOM  <\/strong>(Netherlands): But I am just now referring to the Holy Places where you have no jurisdiction.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMr. FABREGAT  <\/strong>(Uruguay): All the Holy Places.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>Yes, that list can easily be drawn up. Drawing up the list is not difficult, but the question is whether is would be feasible to include those shrines because then we get once again into the question of the status quo.<\/i>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tThe CHAIRMAN : <\/strong>Do you mean that we ought to address ourselves to the other Christian com­munities to get the list of places under their jurisdiction?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>Well, that is not up to me to decide. If you wish to get it from the other communities-from the Catholic standpoint we will present the Catholic shrines. My point is, what would be the point in enumerating shrines which we de facto <\/i>do not have under our jurisdiction because we would really come then into the question of the status quo. <\/i>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMr. BLOM  <\/strong>(Netherlands): I am not asking why there is no jurisdiction in the Roman Catholic Church over such shrines but just a list of which Holy Places are under the jurisdiction of the Roman Catholic Church, partly or entirely, and which are not. Of course it is possible to get a list from other sources, but I am just drawing the attention to the fact that we should try to get a complete list.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tThe CHAIRMAN : <\/strong>Would you draw up as com­plete a list as you can?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>Yes, certainly.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMr. BLOM  <\/strong>(Netherlands): In this memoran­dum it is recommended that there should be some guarantees in some way or another, espe­cially where there may be a future non-Christian Government. Could the Reverend Father tell us whether, under Turkish rule when there was a non-Christian Government, there were any practical difficulties in this connexion which are not existing now?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>For that reason we had the protection of the Western Powers.  Under the Turkish regime, it was France who acted as the  protecting  power  of  the   Catholic  rights. If there is a protecting power, that means there are difficulties that arise. Otherwise, you do not need protection. And difficulties did arise.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tMr. LISICKY  <\/strong>(Czechoslovakia): I was interested in this list of Holy Places which are considered as such by the Roman Catholics and are not under the jurisdiction of Roman Catholics. I think there is no difficulty in getting such a list.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tThe CHAIRMAN : <\/strong>The Reverend Father seems to think that it would be possible to draw up such a list.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>Certainly it is possible to draw it up, but not in contentious matters, though we are including this in the presentation of our memorandum. We are not claiming them. That is the reason why, at first, I did not wish to include them. I did not wish to bring a contentious question into the memorandum by including shrines we do not have. It may be thought that we were trying to obtain these shrines by virtue of this memorandum. That is what I was trying to avoid.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tThe CHAIRMAN : <\/strong>Then the list will be drawn up so that you will indicate the shrines under your entire jurisdiction, further, the shrines partially under your jurisdiction, and finally, the shrines outside of your jurisdiction, over which you have no jurisdiction.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>If you desire, Mr. Chairman.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tSir Abdur RAHMAN  <\/strong>(India): If a note is made against the shrines about which there is any contention, it will be better.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tThe CHAIRMAN : <\/strong>Can you also indicate the shrines in regard to which there is a contention or a dispute?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>Yes, certainly.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tThe CHAIRMAN : <\/strong>Then we shall expect this list.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tAre there any other questions?\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tThen it remains for me to thank you, Reverend Father.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n
\n\t\t\t\tBrother BONAVENTURE : <\/strong>Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Members of the Committee for your kind attention.\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n<\/p><\/div>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

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