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[00:00:00] Melissa Fleming

My guest this week told me she is an obstinate optimist who believes in the power of the UN to change things for the better.

 

[00:00:10] Allegra Baiocchi

I am truly an optimist. I do think we can turn this around, but it does need a lot of people taking action, and so I stay awake at night trying to figure out how to get people to act.

 

[00:00:34] Melissa Fleming

Allegra Baiocchi is the UN Resident Coordinator in Mexico. From the United Nations, I'm Melissa Fleming. This is Awake at Night. It's so nice to have you here in New York, Allegra.

 

[00:00:56] Allegra Baiocchi

Nice to see you and thank you for inviting me to Awake at Night.

 

[00:00:59] Melissa Fleming

Oh, well, it's great to have you here. And you just recently moved to Mexico. And I want to get to that soon. But looking at your bio, I'm really curious. It seems like you've spent your entire life on the move. How many countries have you lived in?

 

[00:01:18] Allegra Baiocchi

Well, I started moving when I was a child, you know, with my parents, so I think we must be close to 15, 20, I would say. And my kids are living the same life, so we're passing it on in the generation.

 

[00:01:29] Melissa Fleming

So, you were born in Venezuela. Your parents are Italian, I understand.

 

[00:01:33] Allegra Baiocchi

Yes.

 

[00:01:34] Melissa Fleming

So what were they doing there?

 

[00:01:37] Allegra Baiocchi

My father was... You know, there's many Italian companies that work all over the world, usually in infrastructure. And so, he was working for one of those. And so, we got to move around a lot, starting out in Venezuela, but then we moved to Algeria. And then I continued mainly in Africa. So, I always say I grew up in Africa

 

[00:01:55] Melissa Fleming

Really? Is there a country in Africa in your childhood that most speaks to you?

 

[00:02:04] Allegra Baiocchi

In my childhood where we spent five years in Zimbabwe and it was really big years for me. You know, it's when you're like 11 to 16. So that definitely becomes a core in my growing up, in my experience. But then I also got to live in Senegal with the UN for another five years and that's another country that's also really close to my heart and to my kids' heart.

 

[00:02:27] Melissa Fleming

So in Zimbabwe, what was that like? Do you think of it in a way as a kind of home country?

 

[00:02:33] Allegra Baiocchi

No, I don't think... You know, when you move so much, I don't think of home, actually. I think it changes our whole perspective on what home is and you really get to see yourself as - I know it sounds maybe trite - but as really as a world citizen. But I think that's just taking [inaudible] the diversity of the world and how connected you can be to everything. It doesn't matter if you're born there. You know, often people say, 'Where are you from?' And it has to be either born or parents or... And I think you can find connections with so many places. I also feel super connected to New York. I got the chance to work here twice. I started here actually with the UN as a JPO [Junior Professional Officer] in New York.

 

 

[00:03:13] Melissa Fleming

So a global citizen. Did your parents speak Italian to you at home? 

 

[00:03:19] Allegra Baiocchi

We spoke Italian. We spoke a little bit of Spanish. But we also spoke English because growing up as an expat you end up going to English-speaking schools. I ended up going mostly in English-speaking schools. So, there was a lot of English in my family as well.

 

[00:03:33] Melissa Fleming

Wasn't it a bit tough in any way to move around too? I mean, as a kid you make friends and the friends become so important and then all of a sudden, your parents say, 'Guess what?'

 

[00:03:45] Allegra Baiocchi

It's time. I think, and I've seen this in my experience, but also through my children's experience, it gets very tough as you grow older. So, the 15, 16, the teenage years I think are the toughest. My last move was when I was 16 and I left Zimbabwe and went back to Italy and then I stayed on for university. And yeah, that was a traumatic move, and I cried so much on the plane.

And I've seen that through my kids. But I was just saying this to a colleague recently. I asked my kids, you know, 'All in all, do you regret it?' And both of them said no. That the benefits of this kind of life and the way it connects you with the world, and you have so many experiences, and end up having friends all over the world, is worth the missing and the saying goodbye to people. And I think in today's world everybody's so connected that we're all a little of global citizens in a way. That's, I guess, the benefit of some of the social media platforms.

 

[00:04:46] Melissa Fleming

I guess that's what brought you to New York. You have friends here and somebody's celebrating their birthday.

 

[00:04:51] Allegra Baiocchi

Exactly. And then you get to know about it because [inaudible] or you're one WhatsApp away. Yeah, there's definitely a different way of staying connected today than, you know, when it was letters, or I remember, faxes. And so, I think that we have to...

 

[00:05:07] Melissa Fleming

Or long-distance phone calls that were exorbitant.

 

[00:05:08] Allegra Baiocchi

Very expensive long-distance phone calls. You know, the dial-up. So, I think, yeah, there's a big benefit to that.

 

[00:05:16] Melissa Fleming

When did you first encounter the UN?

 

[00:05:19] Allegra Baiocchi

At university. During university years I studied development economics. I already knew this was the field I wanted to be in. And UNICEF [United Nations Children's Fund] was offering a course, a side course, in a way, at the university around education and children. And so that's the first UN thing I did officially.

And then I got an internship in Geneva. And, you know, Geneva, like New York, is a place full of interns. And we're all around the same age, many different nationalities, everybody hoping to get into the UN. And so, it's an incredible energy because we're all placed in different agencies but connect usually socially. And you become like a class of as you... And many are in the UN today, actually. I still have a lot of colleagues and friends from that period. So many young people are ready to make a lot of sacrifices to be able to have an internship or to get closer to the UN.

Maybe we'll talk about it, but I think we're in such a bubble of criticism, but when you also are at country level you feel there's still so much respect, love and care for the UN, especially amongst the young. And I think you recently participated in a Model UN. We have a lot of invitations for Model UN and it's incredible to see so many young students - high school, university - playing UN in incredibly serious and powerful ways. And so, it's heartwarming for us to see that there's still so many young people that believe in the UN.

 

[00:06:52] Melissa Fleming

Yeah, it's kind of where I get my energy when I go and speak to these groups of young people. They read about the values and the principles and the ideals. There's something that really attracts young people. What do you think it is?

 

[00:07:09] Allegra Baiocchi

I think it is the Charter. I think the dream of the UN still speaks to all of us. I mean, definitely speaks to me. And I think, you know, the young people are hopefully a little less jaded and still are hopeful and believe in that we can make it work. And I think they get that.

And it's interesting because Model UN also tells them how complicated it is to actually make it work because they find themselves at a negotiating table, you know, where they have to come to an agreement. And so, I think they also see the other side, which is the whole intergovernmental process of what is really behind the UN and how really hard it is to get so many voices to come together around any issue.

And I said it recently. There's still so much magic in the UN, because while we look at the disagreement, we're not seeing how much agreement is happening every day on many, many issues. And just that, you know, being able to bring the world around any topic and actually have them agree is incredible. 

 

[00:08:11] Melissa Fleming

It is. Unfortunately, it's rarely reported, and that's one of my struggles. But yeah, there is a lot happening, and there is a lot of impact in the UN, and I know that you've had a lot of impact in your career. But from Geneva... You didn't want to stay in Geneva?

 

[00:08:30] Allegra Baiocchi

I did what think everybody should do, which is go and get experience. And so, I joined an Italian NGO and ended up in the Kivus. So, I started in Burundi and then I went over the border to what was then Zaire. So, I worked there for a year and then was able to join the UN with OCHA, the Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, as a junior professional officer.

 

 

[00:08:55] Melissa Fleming

So did that give you a spark to join humanitarian work?

 

[00:09:02] Allegra Baiocchi

Yes. Yes, at the time it was two years after the genocide. And so, it was all the fallout in the region. So, it was asylum seekers, refugees, IDPs. It was a mix of everything happening in that region. And then in the meantime, there were ongoing wars because the Kabila government was marching into Kinshasa and eventually went all the way. So, it was a historic time. And yes, I think... I mean, I know this is a bit biased, but I think there's no job like a humanitarian job to give you a sense of the UN. And I've been very lucky to be able to work as a humanitarian for so many years.

 

[00:09:44] Melissa Fleming

What was it about it? Like, what were you actually doing? What was your job?

 

[00:09:47] Allegra Baiocchi

Yeah. Well, you know, when you work with the NGOs, you're really doing it. And so, I was based in Muyinga, which is a part of Burundi in the north. And we were basically supporting refugee camps. And in particular my programme was on unaccompanied minors. So, because when populations flee, unfortunately, a lot of families get separated. And so, we were working also with UNICEF and ICRC [International Committee of the Red Cross] to create a database of unaccompanied minors and actually do family reunifications, which of course is incredible when it works.

 

[00:10:22] Melissa Fleming

Did you get to witness any families?

 

[00:10:24] Allegra Baiocchi

Yes, I did. Not many, not as many as I would have wanted to, but I did. And it's just an incredible feeling also because it was across a region. There were like three countries involved. So, it's complicated but incredibly fulfilling work.

 

[00:10:37] Melissa Fleming

And very difficult at that time without the kind of technology that we have today.

 

[00:10:42] Allegra Baiocchi

Yes. Excel spreadsheets.

 

[00:10:43] Melissa Fleming

Excel spreadsheets. And so, these... I mean, ¡°unaccompanied minors¡± is a nice kind of bureaucratic term for a young person who is all alone without his or her family and is probably in one of the most vulnerable situations you can imagine.

 

[00:11:01] Allegra Baiocchi

Happening today in this very country. Happening today all across the continent with the migration flows, unfortunately. So yes, many, many years on still, unfortunately, something that we have to work on.

 

[00:11:18] Melissa Fleming

Then you applied and you were able to get a job at the UN.

 

[00:11:20] Allegra Baiocchi

Yes. I remember exactly sitting in an office. I was in Bujumbura at the moment which is in Burundi and receiving the message that you've been selected as a young professional, a JPO, a professional officer to work with OCHA a few months before Sergio Vieira de Mello joined.

 

[00:11:43] Melissa Fleming

Sergio Vieira de Mello who was a very important UN figure who tragically years later would die in the horrific bombing of the Canal Hotel in Baghdad. So, he was your boss?

 

[00:12:00] Allegra Baiocchi

He was our boss. Yes, he was incredible, as you said.

 

[00:12:03] Melissa Fleming

Was he as inspiring as everybody says?

 

[00:12:06] Allegra Baiocchi

Yes. Yes, I think he was also... Yes. He was incredibly inspiring. He was a very seasoned diplomat. He spoke so many languages and would try and match the language of any person he would meet. And I think was also pragmatic. He knew how hard this job was. And I remember some phrases: 'It takes two to tango.' Or 'dancing with the devil.' Which really came back to me many years later, when you sit in front of very complicated people, whether in government or rebels, people you wouldn't want to share a conversation or a meal or anything, but you have to. That's part of the job. So, I think it was also the dancing with the devil at some point. You have to make deals for the greater good to some extent. And that's part of the UN. And it's a part of UN that often gets misunderstood by many on the "why", and it's a huge dilemma.

 

 

[00:13:06] Melissa Fleming

Especially now with all of the non-state actors, the groups that are pretty frightening and unpredictable and unsavory, but who hold the keys to access to people who are in desperate need of help, right?

 

[00:13:25] Allegra Baiocchi

Non-state and state in some cases.

 

[00:13:29] Melissa Fleming

True. It's not only non-state.

 

[00:13:30] Allegra Baiocchi

It's not only non-state, unfortunately.

 

[00:13:33] Melissa Fleming

Yeah. Well, you had... I think you went on to a number of postings in Africa, including the Democratic Republic of the Congo and Kenya. Is there a place that really marked you?

 

[00:13:47] Allegra Baiocchi

I think more than the place, it's what was happening at the time. You know, and I think if I look at that period, which was my kind of¡­ the duty stations I had with OCHA in Africa, I spoke to the fondness I had for Dakar. But it's also I was at the time the regional head for OCHA, so I was covering Western Central Africa, which is a huge region. And it was the time of the Sahel food crisis. It was the time of Boko Haram in Lake Chad, which still is unfortunately. But also, Ebola. You know, it's in those years that...

 

[00:14:20] Melissa Fleming

So all those things were happening at the same time.

 

[00:14:22] Allegra Baiocchi

Yes. Any humanitarian will have seen an incredible long list of horrible situations, you know, where really human empathy is tested to the limit. I definitely think hunger is one of them, and especially when it affects children. It impacts you differently, I think, to see a malnourished child or to maybe visit a feeding centre or malnutrition centre and seeing these children on the drip and knowing how fragile their life is. But also, how just the lack of a generator or the lack of supplies - which tends to happen so much more and more these days - is life or death for so many babies. And so, I think definitely hunger and the other one - Ebola. I mean, Ebola is a...

 

[00:15:06] Melissa Fleming

What was that like? It must have been frightening.

 

[00:15:09] Allegra Baiocchi

I think it was frightening because we didn't understand it, but there was these kind of centres, makeshift centres. They were just tents. And then people would be put behind a barrier and then they became untouchable. And everybody was terrified. Even as a response office you were terrified. And then you remember the images of the completely covered up in [inaudible] and the washing. And just that sense of having all these people in front of you. There's no way you can touch them, approach them. And honestly you just look and there's children and there's families and you just don't know what's going to happen to them.

 

[00:15:49] Melissa Fleming

So you were coordinating the humanitarian response, but not to the Ebola, right? That was WHO [World Health Organization], I believe.

 

[00:15:56] Allegra Baiocchi

Well, it was an inter-agency response. There was WHO. There was WFP [World Food Programme]. A lot of different agencies came in and then of course the UN set up a mission. And so, I was doing the OCHA piece, which was more the coordination part. And then of course we set up teams. But this was right at the beginning before we had people on the ground. And I think, as you know, there was at that time basically no cure, no real cure, no real treatment. And so, it was just containment. And so, facing that sense of you're at risk, you get contained, you get put away and...

 

[00:16:29] Melissa Fleming

And you were at risk too.

 

[00:16:31] Allegra Baiocchi

Yeah, and of course, it was the time... Well, it was way before COVID, and then that's when, there was no touching, no hugging, no... It was a completely different way of engaging. And I think it was... And also, because, of course, anybody who traveled to the region had to stay on a medical watch for I think we had 21 days. And so, you would have to be checked daily to see if there was any symptom.

 

[00:16:55] Melissa Fleming

Any time you would leave.

 

[00:16:57] Allegra Baiocchi

Any time after you'd leave from the... If I went back to Dakar, basically, I would also have 21 days where I had to stay away from my family because of the risk.

 

[00:17:08] Melissa Fleming

Were you scared?

 

[00:17:10] Allegra Baiocchi

Yes, definitely. Definitely scared. Everybody had to be, I think. It was scary. It was very scary.

 

[00:17:18] Melissa Fleming

Did anyone that you knew, or anybody from the UN, get infected with Ebola?

 

[00:17:23] Allegra Baiocchi

Well, we had people from the UN, but again, it's unfortunate because when some of the people who were first respondents, were evacuated, and I believe most of them were saved. And so, you could also see the big difference about being able to fly out and receive treatment, top level treatments, and not.

 

[00:17:45] Melissa Fleming

How did you see organizing all of that? Because as the coordinator for humanitarian affairs, you have all these UN agencies on the ground that are responsible for different sectors - health or food or children or shelter. And then you also have the NGOs, and you had that experience. So, what is it like? Is it like being a conductor or an orchestra director?

 

 

[00:18:10] Allegra Baiocchi

Yes, it is absolutely. Well, I think recently, you know, Robert Piper wrote an article saying we often use the phrase "herding cats", which we do. We really do. There's a very famous vignette on how hard it is to herd cats. But it is. It is about bringing so many different parts together, which are all necessary, but they only really work when they fit. It's kind of like a puzzle. You need all the pieces, but you need them to fit together because otherwise it's chaotic, duplicative, and very messy.

And so, I think that's why it's such... Coordination in general is so incredibly complex for anyone doing it. But I think the biggest thing is to keep everyone looking in the right direction. Why are we doing this? Why are all here? What are we trying to achieve? Let's think of whatever it is on the ground, whether it's a humanitarian crisis, a development situation, can we focus on the common objective? I think over the years, because I've been doing coordination right from the beginning, basically, I feel we have much improved, much learnt. I think the UN parts have really learned to work better together.

 

[00:19:31] Melissa Fleming

You also worked in Sudan and South Sudan. How do you feel when you think about the war in Sudan today?

 

[00:19:38] Allegra Baiocchi

Yeah, I was with the peacekeeping operation then. Well, Sudan and South Sudan have gone through many ups and downs. And I left South Sudan and we were in a moment of great hope. When I left South Sudan in particular, we were helping create a new government. You know, it was the first time South Sudan was going to become independent. We were helping design a nation. And so, when South Sudan went back to war, there was already that first moment of big deception or disillusion, disappointment, maybe.

And then of course I spent... I lived about a year and a half in Khartoum, which at the time was incredibly peaceful. People were so friendly and open. And I remember people saying, 'Well, it's a city that has never known war.' People used to say that about Khartoum, and it was a beautiful town. It had a lot of magic to it. And so yeah, when I see images. Because obviously I haven't been back, but when I see images of the same neighbourhood I used to live in and the rubble. It's just rubble.

 

[00:20:45] Melissa Fleming

Completely destroyed.

 

[00:20:46] Allegra Baiocchi

Yes, and of course, you know, we have a lot of Sudanese colleagues also. And they've lived this and through their families, you know. So, it's, yeah, heartbreaking, I guess. And also, senseless. I mean, what is frustrating is the senselessness of it. You know, just the pointlessness of it. Destroying a whole town apart from the cost on civilians. Exactly for what? For these endless cycles of violence.

 

[00:21:16] Melissa Fleming

Senseless. Is that how you would summarize war?

 

[00:21:21] Allegra Baiocchi

Yes. Yes, I have to. I mean, of course, I don't... A crisis and uprisings can bring better outcomes. And I think we've seen that throughout history, but even in recent history. You know, there are moments when people just have to stand up and say, 'Enough. We don't want this anymore.' I think what is senseless is these extended wars that just have no outcome and just have this incredible cost. So just the endurance of warring parties who just don't want to come to an agreement. I think that's the part that is frustrating and senseless.

 

[00:22:01] Melissa Fleming

There was quite a promising uprising in Sudan with young people who wanted a different future, a democracy. And these hopes were completely crushed.

 

[00:22:14] Allegra Baiocchi

Yeah, and it's the disconnect that I think people feel. Leadership. That's I think what we're seeing around the world, you know, the disconnect of leadership with the aspirations of their people.

 

[00:22:24] Melissa Fleming

You also spent several years in Cameroon. What happened there? What were you doing there?

 

[00:22:31] Allegra Baiocchi

There I was... It was my first Resident Coordinator position. And then I was...

 

[00:22:34] Melissa Fleming

Just describe what is a Resident Coordinator.

 

[00:22:37] Allegra Baiocchi

So the UN, in every country we operate, programme country, there's a position of Resident Coordinator. And the job is... Because as you said, the UN is made up of lots of different pieces. There's lots of agencies, departments. And so, there's a position that was created to serve as the coordinator. To try and come... Well, the job is - bring the UN together.

 

[00:23:03] Melissa Fleming

Right. And in many of these places... Because it came out of actually the development system and coincided a lot with the real push towards implementing the Sustainable Development Goals. What does it look like if you're on the ground in a country and they have committed to adopting the Sustainable Development Goals and you, as the Resident Coordinator, are there to help them?

 

[00:23:26] Allegra Baiocchi

Big part of our job. Well first of all, the first thing I always say is this is not the UN agenda. Because it often gets mentioned as, 'Oh well, this is the UN agenda.' I always say, 'No. This is a Member States' agenda.' And as you rightly said, 'As UN, we're here to help you make it happen. You committed to this. We all committed to this.' Because we forget it's universal. So, what you're really trying to do is create a country-wide coalition where everybody can stand behind the SDGs.

And of course, right now we're facing the fact that we're so far away from achieving them in 2030. And so, there's a lot of questioning: 'Well, does it still make sense?' And what I personally say is absolutely still makes sense because these were 17 promises that the world made to their people, and the promises are still valid. I mean, who doesn't want no poverty or a circular economy or safe jobs, etc...? So, there's not, you know... It totally makes sense that we continue to work towards them.

And again, I think in the three countries I've worked in, I've seen such a different take from governments. And as you know, there's a pushback going on right now around the Agenda 2030 and the Sustainable Development Goals. And so, I've worked in countries where it becomes complicated. And I said it recently. We have colleagues who have a hard time just wearing the pin of the SDGs because of the countries they serve in. And so having just moved to Mexico, it was a relief to see a country where the SDGs are so embraced by all. You know, you'll see pins and stickers and from all walks of life people will refer to them. You know, again, academia, private sector, Senate, parliamentarians.

 

[00:25:15] Melissa Fleming

Young kids?

 

[00:25:16] Allegra Baiocchi

Young. Yes, in schools. Absolutely.

 

 

[00:25:19] Melissa Fleming

Is there, in the three countries and the other...? You mentioned Cameroon, but also you worked in Costa Rica and now in Mexico. Is there an SDG that you're particularly proud of or you feel that you were able to work with stakeholders there to make some progress?

 

[00:25:38] Allegra Baiocchi

Gender equality I think speaks to me. It's under attack and it's definitely something that keeps me up at night and worries me incredibly on how we can have so much pushback on something as basic as gender equality. And so, I think it is an SDG that brings people together. In Mexico, obviously, now that we have the president, woman president, who has an incredibly strong agenda on this issue. There's so much civil society around it. Being an SDG that is so under attack, it's also an SDG where there's so much movement.

 

[00:26:14] Melissa Fleming

I wonder, have you felt as a woman growing up in the UN system, but also making a lot of progress and becoming a leader, have you struggled at all being a woman?

 

[00:26:30] Allegra Baiocchi

Absolutely. Absolutely. Among Resident Coordinators we have a women RC network, where you know as a peer group, we tried to organize ourselves and we are very open about the issues that we face. Every single woman RC, and I believe every single woman, honestly, will say that they've had some form of experience or some form discrimination or some form of different kind of treatment. Whether it happens in the place where you're working, in your duty station. Whether it happens in your organization, or even in your family, you know, everything is connected.

I think, as you know, the UN is a job that is life. It's not only a job. It's not a nine to five, especially when you work on posting. It's your whole life. You leave everything behind and you start all over again every four or five years or even less. And so, the way it affects your life, especially for caregivers, especially for mothers or a lot of women. Personally, I'm also a single mother and we have a lot of single mothers among Resident Coordinators. And I think it's, you know... We really come together and we've actually spoken to our organization to say, 'Are there better ways to support us?'

 

[00:27:55] Melissa Fleming

And also what I'm hearing from many women RCs who are out defending the UN, wearing the SDG pin, defending human rights, are also very much under attack online. And I know that this is an issue that you really worked on a lot in Costa Rica. I mean, first, I'd just like to ask whether you have experienced any kind of digital hate or any of your colleagues.

 

[00:28:28] Allegra Baiocchi

Yes, absolutely. I think you cannot be a woman in leadership today and not have received some sort of hate. We did a lot of work in Costa Rica, especially around elections, whether it was a municipal elections or parliamentary elections. To really support women who did want to participate, who wanted to stand as candidates to say, 'Well, this is what you'll face.' Because I can't take that away.

What I can tell you is how can you protect yourself. How can you denounce it. How can you block people when necessary. You know, play with the tools that the platforms offer you to protect yourself and when possible, really denounce it and seek justice for it. But as you know it's an incredibly complicated space.

But I wanted to share some very good news coming out of Mexico where under the leadership of President Sheinbaum, they've just signed the first agreement, as far as I know, in the whole continent with three platforms, a voluntary agreement. They have Google, Meta, and TikTok, which is to address hate speech and digital violence against women.

 

[00:29:36] Melissa Fleming

Wow! That is really good news.

 

[00:29:38] Allegra Baiocchi

Yes. She announced it. We were all, as you said¡­ "Wow!" was the reaction, and we're now working with the Ministry of Women Affairs to see how can we support the implementation. But it's called a voluntary agreement, but they did get these three platforms to sign. I did not mention one platform because they did not get that platform to agree.

 

[00:29:56] Melissa Fleming

I think we know which one it is, but I hope that this could be a model.

 

 

[00:30:01] Allegra Baiocchi

Totally.

 

[00:30:03] Melissa Fleming

Hopefully, it will also not just be a voluntary nice piece of paper, but they will actually implement.

 

[00:30:08] Allegra Baiocchi

But it does work a lot on the role of the platforms, for sure, because we know there's a lot of responsibility and accountability on that side. But I think there's still a long way to go in terms of building the capacity of women who are in digital space - children, adolescents and women - to create a safer space for themselves with the tools that exist online. And I think the piece we all need to work on - and the UN is working on it because we have the global dialogue on AI - is the governance piece and making sure there is accountability for what is said in the digital space. I have great hopes for the UN-led global dialogue on AI.

 

[00:30:48] Melissa Fleming

You're now in Mexico. And you started, I believe, in February. So, what are your hopes for your time in Mexico? I believe it'll be four years.

 

[00:31:00] Allegra Baiocchi

Five.

 

[00:31:01] Melissa Fleming

Five?

 

[00:31:01] Allegra Baiocchi

Up to the end of 2030. So, I'll see the SDG agenda and whatever may come next in Mexico. First of all, I'm incredibly lucky to be able to work in a country, not only that has a woman president, but has a women president who is so incredibly committed to all the issues that the UN cares about. It's such an incredible match between the values of the government and the values of the UN. So, it's about feminism. It's about gender equality. It is about anti-discrimination. It's about indigenous people and Afro descendants. And the word that the president often uses - I just had the opportunity of meeting her - is "well-being", "bienestar". The well-being of people, which is such a word at the core of the UN. And so, I have hope that once you have a country that has political will and, of course, capacity, we can make that match.

 

[00:31:55] Melissa Fleming

You recently had the chance to meet with President Sheinbaum. It was together with Volker T¨¹rk, the High Commissioner for Human Rights. What were some of the issues that you thought that she wanted you both to help her solve together, the UN and the government of Mexico?

 

[00:32:15] Allegra Baiocchi

Well, yes. So, we had the visit of the High Commissioner for Human Rights just a couple of weeks ago, and it was an incredible opportunity for me, especially being new in the country, to participate and hear what he was hearing, which is an incredible amount of concerns when it comes to human rights. So, there was a lot of focus on that in our discussion, and I think it was a very open conversation where it was recognizing where progress has been made and different laws and mechanisms that the country has tried to put in place, but also where huge challenges remain.

And I think it's always important as UN that you are in a position where you can hear all different voices. The High Commissioner was able to hear government and to hear what their side of the response is. But at the same time match that with incredibly powerful and heart-wrenching stories that we collected from families, from mothers and brothers and sisters who are looking for their loved ones, maybe decades on. It's where you can bring those two sides together and make a useful contribution. I think those definitely were some of the conversations. And I think it's also so powerful in a way when any leader recognizes that it can receive advice or it can receive support from the UN. Because that's all the UN wants to do. The UN is really designed just to ask our counterparts, 'Where can I help you?'

 

[00:33:55] Melissa Fleming

What keeps you awake at night?

 

[00:33:57] Allegra Baiocchi

I knew you were going to ask and I thought, well, menopause. But okay apart from menopause... There's a cure for that. No. It's an important question, of course, and it's one that I think does beg reflection and I think it's easy to say the future. But not in the sense of, I worry about the future. What I do worry about is that we have lost faith in constructing the future. The future doesn't happen to us. We create our future. And as you know in the UN now, we do a lot of future backcasting or horizon scanning, and that's really the message. Imagine your future and start working towards it today.

And what keeps me awake at night is how do I build a coalition of people, voices, institutions, capacities that I need, that we all need to build that future? Because what we're all seeing is a lot of indifference. It's a lot of apathy. It's a lot of people giving up. And so, I remember staying up at night during the elections in Costa Rica and thinking, 'How do I get young people to vote? How do I get young people to go back in thinking that their vote matters?' I mean, we have to really worry about the level of non-participation in elections. That's such a strong message: 'I don't care because it doesn't make a difference.' And so how do you reverse that?

So, I'm an optimist and I had the chance of working in Costa Rica, which as you know, has our former colleague, Christiana Figueres, who is a big champion for obstinate optimism, and I have subscribed. I think I am truly an optimist. I do think we can turn this around, but it does need a lot of people taking action, and so I stay awake at night trying to figure out how to get people to act.

 

 

[00:35:50] Melissa Fleming

I love obstinate optimism. I think I'm going to adopt that too. You talked about future scanning and creating that participatory feeling that we all have power. But you also mentioned earlier that you're a single mom. And how do your children...? Do you have one child or two children?

 

[00:36:14] Allegra Baiocchi

Two.

 

[00:36:15] Melissa Fleming

How do they feel about the future?

 

[00:36:19] Allegra Baiocchi

Optimists. Truly optimists. Well, they're still, I guess, young. They are 16 and 18, and not as worried as parents tend to be. You know, not as worried... There's all this doom and gloom around AI and taking all the jobs away. And I feel it's already integrated that their life is going to be so different from ours. They don't have the same expectations. I'll speak for my children. They don't have the same expectations that we had. And so, they're very much up for the unknown and whatever will happen. And it may not be fully planned out. That's okay. And yeah. And so, I feel, yeah¡­

 

[00:37:04] Melissa Fleming

That you had to move teenagers in the middle of their kind of difficult years to another country. How did they feel about moving?

 

[00:37:15] Allegra Baiocchi

Again, I mean, I think there's times when they've been more open to it than others. But again, on balance, they've always told me that they've appreciated the languages that they speak, the amount of experiences they've had across continents, and the breadth of friendships that they have. And my children are half Moroccan, so that also, it already gives them a different outlook on the world.

And I think it's so important whether you have to have this upbringing or not, to remember that we are a very diverse world. And I think we tend to really look down in our small reality and think that this is how the world is. But as we said before, in terms of where there's good and bad. Every day, every minute... And I know Melissa, you've asked us to report on the positive because it is so important to remember that in any situation, there's a lot of positive happening all the time. And I think it's also that when we want to look at the worst of humanity, there are always incredible examples of the best of humanity happening at the same time.

 

[00:38:31] Melissa Fleming

Yeah, there are. I think I'm looking forward to seeing all of the positive stories that are going to emerge out of Mexico during your time there, Allegra. Thank you so much for joining me on Awake at Night.

 

[00:38:46] Allegra Baiocchi

No and thank you for your time.

 

[00:38:49] Melissa Fleming

Thank you for listening to Awake at Night. We'll be back soon with more incredible and inspiring stories from people working against huge challenges to make this world a better and safer place.

To find out more about the series and the extraordinary people featured, do visit un.org/awake-at-night. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and please take the time to review us. It helps more people to find the show.

Thanks to my editor Bethany Bell and to my colleagues at the UN: Katerina Kitidi, Roberta Politi, Geneva Damayanti, Abby Vardeleon, Alison Corbet, Laura Rodriguez de Castro, Eric Balgley, Jason Candler, Benji Candelario, Anzhelika Devis, Tulin Battikhi, Bissera Kostova, Brianna Rowe, Joon Park, and Taeyoung Lee. The original music for this podcast was written and performed by Nadine Shah and produced by Ben Hillier.